2021-05-18 LIVE from NYPL Lets Talk About Hard Things: Anna Sale with Michael Arceneaux >> Speaker: Thank you for joining us tonight. We are currently playing a pre-event slide show. The first slide shows the LIVE logo in gold on a white background with the text LIVE from NYPL presents Let's talk about Hard Things: Anna Sale with Michael Arceneaux. May 18th, 2021, 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time. The second slide contains an image of the featured book jacket. The cover is cream colored with the title appearing in large black letters. Let's Talk About Hard Things by Anna Sale, host of the podcast, Death, Sex, and Money. There is a purple pink rose printed horizontally, with its green thorny stem threading through the word "hard" in the title. Let's Talk about Hard Things is available for purchase online from the library. Shop on.nypl.org/shopLIVE. Proceeds benefit the New York Public Library. Reserve a copy for free with the New York Public Library card. Visit tonight's event page to find this title in a variety of formats nypl.org/LIVE. The last slide shows recommended reading. Anna Sale suggests these books for further reading. I Don't Want to Die Poor by Michael Arceneaux. The Secret to Superhuman Strength by Alison Bechdel. Its Okay That You're Not Okay by Megan Devine. Conflict is Not Abuse by Sarah Schulman. Angle of Repose by Wallace Stegner. Check out the full list and reserve these titles by visiting tonight's event page nypl.org/LIVE. >> Aidan-Flax Clark: Good evening, everyone. Thanks for coming back to another LIVE from NYPL. Tonight, we're with Anna Sale. Anna is the host of WNYC's Death, Sex and Money, and she has a new book, which is the reason she's here. It's called Let's Talk about Hard Things. My name is Aidan-Flax Clark, and I'm part of the team that brings you LIVE from NYPL, which means that I am thoroughly grateful to each of you who's joining us tonight. Anna's book is kind of an outgrowth of her amazing show. She takes on difficult subjects that we kind of don't want to talk about. But she's going to talk about them and her book tonight with writer Michael Arceneaux, whose books include I Can't Date Jesus, and I Don't Want to Die Poor. And Michael's a past guest on Death, Sex and Money. If you live in New York State and would like to apply for a library card, or you already have one, which is even better, of course, you can borrow Let's Talk about Hard Things as well as Michael's books for free. Many of our locations are open for grab and go service, and many more just started opening up last week. NYPL as well as Brooklyn and Queens Public Library systems announced last week that as of Monday, May 10th, we would all begin to reintroduce more onsite services across more of our locations. This includes computer reservations and limited browsing in person. And the aim is to have all available branches open by mid-July. Also for any of you who are interested in using our research collections, those are also available now, limited, but available. You make an appointment, and you can get onsite access to collections that you need to finish your work. So please come visit us. We've really missed having you in our buildings, and we're excited that we can offer at least a little bit more now. To learn about how all of it works, go to nypl.org. Meanwhile, if you're able, I'd really encourage you to buy Anna's book as well from the library shop of course. You're going to love reading it and proceeds go to benefit the New York Public Library. You can find a link to get the book in the chat, as well as below this video on the event page. And while you're there below that video, you can also find some recommended reading for Anna as well as information on how to get those titles from the library. Okay. There are a lot of great LIVE from NYPL events coming up. So you got to give me a second to tell you about a few. Jia Lynn Yang is going to be here next week talking about our American immigration history. Jim Steyer and Chelsea Clinton will be talking about teens and tech and mental health. Derek DelGaudio is going to talk about his new book with Neil Gaiman. Jamal Jordan is going to talk about queer love and color. And at the end of June, we're going to have a big birthday blow out for Octavia Butler. If you'd like to read about any of those events or learn about some of the other events we have going on, and most importantly, of course, register for all of them, you can go to nypl.org/LIVE. Okay, I'm going to turn it over to Michael and Anna in just a second. I have to tell you that even though you are watching this video and using the chat on an nypl.org page, those two things are hosted by YouTube, which means that if you use the chat, you might share some data about yourself and the library does not control that. If you'd like to learn more about how that works, you can find some information on the event page. Lastly, Anna would love to answer some of your questions at the end of tonight's conversation, and you can send them in at any time by going to the event page and using the chat or the Google form, or you can email publicprograms@nypl.org. All right, let's bring on Michael Arceneaux and Anna Sale. >> Michael Arceneaux: Hey, hi you? How are you for a plague? >> Anna Sale: I'm good. How are you? >> Michael Arceneaux: Thank you for being here. Thank you to New York Public Library for having us. Thank you, Aidan, for that great introduction. And let me just say, because I was before this, I really loved your book, and I was revisiting it today and over the weekend. Of course, like I [inaudible], but I just kind of want to give you a compliment to say what I really liked about the book, and sorry the people who aren't fortunate to at least to get to know you a little bit, at least be interviewed by you, it reminded me of why I liked you so much. And I mean that in like the simplest, but most sincere way in that it reminded me what it was like to go on your show, because I think we both share the idea that, you know, it's not easy to talk about hard things, but ultimately you have to do it anyway. And I really want it to just start off with complimenting you with the sensitivity that you brought to it, your own stories that you shared. And more than anything, you just have a genuine sensitivity to the struggles that people have, and a genuine concern on how we can come together. And I think a lot of people genuinely want to do better, but I think, you know, as you can see, we all don't really have a lot of the tools necessary to kind of do that. And I really do believe this book is like for anybody that can pick it up and read it, just to find a way to how to make things just a little bit easier with the hard things. So I just wanted to get that sappy, but very meaning like compliment to you because I just genuinely love the book, and looking at it over the weekend just kind of reminded how much I just, you know, really liked talking to you. So I want to say that. And so I've looked at some of the interviews and I know people -- I'm reminded of how topical it is in light of COVID. But I wanted to ask first, just as a writer, around the time when did you sell the book and as you read, you know, you did make some additions about what's going on, you did mention George Floyd, so kind of just walk me through that, because I was curious beforehand, I thought to ask you, but I didn't, I mean as you sell it, how much of it were you writing? And then when all of this happened, when did you decide to go back and how much actual time did you have to do that? >> Anna Sale: Yeah, I mean, I will tell you, Michael, I have spent a lot of time working on this book [laughter]. >> Michael Arceneaux: [laughter] I bet. [laughter] >> Anna Sale: I started working on it -- I started developing the proposal, maybe the end of 2016. >> Michael Arceneaux: Okay. >> Anna Sale: I sold the book in mid-2017. That was four years ago. >> Michael Arceneaux: Yes. >> Anna Sale: So I think for anybody who has a job and is also working on a book, if anybody tells you it's going to take 18 months, don't believe them. But if you say I'm going to approach it like say for college, it's going to take a long as college did, you know, that's what it took for me. So the thing that was actually really wonderful about taking so much time is the book is divided into five big topics, sex, money, family, and identity. And I worked on each chapter in like a chunk, maybe like I spent like a quarter, like three months each on the first reporting and writing. So some of the people in the book I first interviewed in 2017. But as I was revising, and I made the decision as I was fact checking, that what I wanted to do was to actually read what I had written to every person, share it with them so that they could both make sure I had gotten it right, and give me any updates. So that sort of led me kind of re-report on how people's lives had changed over the course of my reporting. So, you know, so I did that the end of last year, so after we'd been, you know, separated and in pandemic for a long, long time. And then I added sections in the -- just sort of reworked the whole intro to bring in how I feel like COVID just sort of made ever more urgent some of the messages of the book, which are, you know, I have like a broad argument in the very beginning that, you know, hard things are not new in life. Hard things have always been with us. But I do believe, and I think this is something you've really written about beautifully, like because of the ways our economy and our society have changed, what used to be -- you know, we used to kind of be able to lean on institutions a little bit more to help us through, a lot of that's fallen away. >> Michael Arceneaux: Right. >> Anna Sale: And we just don't trust them as much. And so the more of the burden of dealing with hard things is on our own individual shoulders and our own ability to communicate about it. And then, you know, that only became more true with COVID when all of a sudden you couldn't just hug someone to offer comfort; you had to put words to it. So that's -- I kind of updated that as well. >> Michael Arceneaux: Yeah. I just want to add to the point I made early in the compliments. Even going back to read what you were reporting on that's that extra level of consideration that I think you apply in your care about how not only you share other people's stories, but how you write about your own and kind of contextualize it. Kind of on that point, I wanted to ask a little bit about the memoir portion, which is throughout the book. And I can tell a lot of your skills as a podcast and a storyteller, like while reading it. But I really liked your use of memoirs. I'm just kind of curious about certain things that you -- did you know that you were going to share that to say like your marriage, how you start off with the anecdote about being really honest about where you felt at 30 and what you thought life was going to be like and how it wasn't. And were there any things that, you know, part of your life that you felt, eh, this doesn't really fit, or I don't want to share it, because I don't necessarily -- well, one reason or another whether or not even just advance the story or not. >> Anna Sale: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because when I was writing, in some ways the memoir parts were -- they felt like the parts that I could just start trying to do without a lot of reporting. You know -- >> Michael Arceneaux: Yes [brief laughter]. On a practical level, it's easier to write [laughter]. >> Anna Sale: -- [multiple speakers] it was like, okay, Anna, like, what do you got about sex in your own life? And like -- you know, and it basically was this process of like, what were pivotal moments? Let me try to write those down. Then let me read them and be like, oh my gosh, am I really going to put this in my book [laughter]. >> Michael Arceneaux: Yes. Oh, yeah [laughter]. >> Anna Sale: And for the most part that I didn't really have a really high filter for my own -- I generally think like modeling my own messiness is part of the work of trying to give people permission to be a little bit more messy and show their work as they're learning. And then there was the next layer of, you know, the people in my life who I write about. You know, my husband, Arthur, God bless him, like he edited the work with me. And also he was just like, is it true? It's fine. Like, which was really quite a gift. >> Michael Arceneaux: You found a partner who can help you edit. Wow. >> Anna Sale: It's good -- [ Laughter ] >> Michael Arceneaux: I'm adding that to the list. Okay [laughter]. >> Anna Sale: But there were harder -- you know, because I write about the end of my first marriage, my ex-husband. And you know, we're cordial, we send birthday texts, but we're not really in each other's lives anymore. And so that was a strange set of emails to have to write like, "Hey, I'm working on this book, I'm writing about the end of our marriage. Can I interview you?" And then like, "Here's what I'm thinking. I want to share the pages with you and just make sure you're comfortable." So that was, you know an ongoing dialogue as I was writing the book as well. >> Michael Arceneaux: Now, while I can see how your skillsets as a great interviewer incorporates in the book, did some of that kind of come in conflict with like writing -- do you know what I mean? Like in the editing process was something that goes like now this would be great if I -- but you got to -- do you know what I mean? >> Anna Sale: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I actually -- the way that your question -- what it makes me think about is you know, what I love about making an interview show with the Death, Sex and Money team is so much of our work is like -- >> Michael Arceneaux: Collaboratively. >> Anna Sale: Pulling out what someone is telling us. And I try to like -- I try to pull out, but mostly it's like, let me get out of the way so they can be the storyteller of their own life, you know. And when you're writing a book like this, where you're saying like, this book is going to be -- you're going to read people's stories, but also you're going to learn something that you can take into your next hard conversation. My book editors were like, you have to say what you want the reader to take away from each story and each person's story, or your own story. And that was the part that felt like the most -- like just work I hadn't done before, like to be like, what have you learned, Anna? Like, what do you want to tell the reader? How do you want them to take this forward? And that just took like, just being pushed to inhabit a little bit more of an expert voice than I can to think of myself as, you know? >> Michael Arceneaux: Yeah. I could -- yeah, I remember just when interviewing me, you do let me kind of -- you're good about letting people know if you're not comfortable though, but that's not how it works usually [brief laughter] in books, so I was curious about that. Now, before I ask like really specific particularly about the money section, just in terms of like, when you're telling readers what you want to take away from them, how have you reacted to the responses that you've gotten so far? Have people for the most part taken kind of the lessons that you wanted to? How has the feedback been for you? I'm just always curious about how that is in those first few weeks, especially now it's such a weird time. I say this to all authors. I'm sorry. >> Anna Sale: It's okay. I mean, it's got its ups and downs, because I like can have dinner with my family tonight. That's nice. You know, I'm not on the road. So its been -- what's really -- it's not nice, it's not the right word, but it's really gratifying, the readers that I'm listening to -- that I'm hearing from through lots of channels, they are people who are like, they're sharing like, I read this and it reminded me of things that happened when my dad died, or I've gotten a lot of messages that are like, I just heard you talk about this thing about how to have a hard conversation, and then I had this conversation with one of my oldest friends that unfolded in a way that it wouldn't have otherwise. And that is like so wonderful to hear. And then I've gotten emails that are like, I started with your book and then my brother died suddenly, and I'm in the middle of that. And I'm just so grateful I have this book. And I think I've heard a lot about death in the responses. And I think that speaks to where we are in this moment. I think there's a lot of death around us and we're all trying to figure our way through our own grief, whatever, however that's shaping up for each of us. And a lot of us are caring more than others. And then we're also trying to figure out how to offer comfort to people we love who are grieving. >> Michael Arceneaux: That actually makes me wonder. Okay, so you exist in media with me, you see the ecosystem that we have. I think kind of for me right now, while we do have a president who kind of is arguably, I mean not arguably, but he knows more about grief than probably any president I can think of in recent decades. But I think kind of in the national media conversation, there's still not really a talk about all of this loss of life. And to me, there's a lot of sadness and I don't know if I'm going to -- but Americans tend to kind of sometimes avoid [brief laughter] what's really in front of them. And for me, it's been hard at least this year in particular that, you know, we know so many people, half a million people died last year. And then I go on cable news and I no longer see kind of like the death toll, yet I know so many people in our personal life who are still struggling with loss. And some of us were kind of struggling with losses before this where we're of a certain age where, you know, this, in my case, like as a gay black man, a lot of people kind of start to still drop off. It's not that different in certain cases, depending on race and class. And I still think, you know, we're still not having that kind of collected grieving, bereavement conversation. Do you worry about that? I mean, I think again, it's important that your book is out there for people who actually don't have the tools to kind of learn how to have this conversation. But just kind of as an observer or somebody who exist in media, do you kind of worry about -- what I hope I made clear is that how much this lack of general -- our country kind of collectively dealing with the fact that a lot of people have died and it really sucks, and there's no real way to kind of confront it, because we're not even trying. >> Anna Sale: Yeah. I mean, yes, I worry about it. And I also it's interesting as a media maker, you know, not just with the book, I mean, I hope the book is a tool that if you're looking for a book, because you are ready to pick something up and think about your own grief, or want to talk with somebody else about their grief, that it's there for you. But as someone -- you know, we're putting out shows still all the time. And I do feel this kind of pendulum of like, you know, people have had a lot of grief in their face. And so even though there's still -- obviously it takes a long time to grieve, and grief hits you in different ways. There is still this like, everybody wants to move to hot vac summer, you know [brief laughter], like enough with the sun. And so I think it's -- I just think what -- you know, what we talk about on the show is just like, how do we just kind of do that mix of like where you're not just like and here is another hard thing to stare into the abyss about, but like weave it in. So you know you can like hold both things in your head. You can want hot vac summer and you can say, I cannot believe my best friend is gone. You know, like I want to shout out this shirt is made by a Brooklyn designer named Donna Perry. Courageously curvy, you can find her on Instagram. And I got this shirt after interviewing her. She was on our show and talking about, she's had a lot of loss in her church in Brooklyn. She lost her best friend. And she talked with us about that grief, and it's called finding blessings and throwing vases. So it's both her holding gratitude for what she has, and throwing vases when she was really angry about the loss. And then at the end of the episode, she says, you know, but I just tell people, you got to make those calls to the people in your life. You know, you sure you know, oh, she didn't call me and she didn't call me. She's like; you just got a call because it's up to you to die empty. And that's like, I love walking around town with this shirt on because it's interesting [laughter]. >> Michael Arceneaux: I love the gist of that sentiment. Another fun topic is money. I wanted to read this book because I just -- well, money is like oxygen, it surrounds us flowing in out of our lives. And when you're short of it, nothing else matters, which literally I just wrote [brief laughter] a book I Don't Want to Die Poor, so you know I get it. But I also want to this part, we avoid and evade because even in a time of surging income inequality, no one wants to be an outlier in America. Most of us want to present ourselves as part of the honorable hardworking middle-class. Even rereading that made me think, because I'm only now really this year had used the language to say, you know what, I kind of grew up poor and abused. But particularly we're poor, you feel like you're insulting your parents. It was actually a parent that used it, you know. And I think even now when everyone's so excited to the point about hot vac summer, we're like, oh, it's like the roaring '20s. And in my mind, I'm also thinking, well, collectively, yeah, we're all going to go into hot vac summer. And ideally, it'd be like the roaring '20s, except a lot of people are still broke and it were really broke before this. And I think that is another issue people don't really want to talk about yet as you -- it was so many different examples. Like money really does impact everything. And particularly I liked the way that you -- particularly Adrian, when you realized a lot of different reasons, part of it is Catholicism. I relate to that, but it's also like your wife, education, money, all of these things kind of complicate relationships. But just to kind of go back to the money part, I think in the same way we don't want to talk about grief, I also feel like we don't talk about necessarily how broke everyone is, but how a lot of people are really struggling. Like we've been talking since I'm a little bit, everything I left New York, you could see homelessness everywhere. I'm back in Houston for right now, you can see homelessness everywhere. I will be going to LA on Friday. That's a really huge homeless situation. Just curious I think honestly, a lot of people they'd rather talk about death [brief laughter] than money. So I'm just curious when readers specifically kind of reaching out to you about the money part, has there been any kind of -- how do I put it? Yeah. Like just, has anyone been like you've made it easier for me to talk about money, or have people really just still been quieter talk about that part? Because I'm just really curious, because even for me as an author, the responses to my first book was more about identities specifically in religion, this was about money, which actually to your point, impacted every facet of my life, even more so, but the responses I get are still people even want to relate their life, they don't want to share completely, there's -- you [inaudible]? >> Anna Sale: Yes, they're so private, you know? I mean, I will say the thing that I've heard from a lot of people about the money chapter is people who have been in -- a couple of different people who've been in long-term relationships like married for 20 plus years. And they've said, if I read this book 20 years ago, it would have saved so many fights in my marriage. It would've just given us a vocabulary to say, oh, when we're fighting about this, we're fighting about this. >> Michael Arceneaux: As you mentioned with your first husband in the book. >> Anna Sale: Yeah. Yeah. And well then with my second husband, I fight with all of my husbands [brief laughter]. But I've gotten better at saying like, oh, the reason I'm being -- I'm sieved up around this purchasing decision where Arthur, my husband, and I are trying to make it's because I have this part of me that like, I get really anxious and I have these cultural values around spending money on things that aren't on sale or if anything is like a little bit fancy, it's like, oh no, we don't do that, you know. And sometimes my husband will say like, I would like the fancy thing and we're going to get it. So then I have to go through this whole thing and be like, okay, maybe I can reimagine that. Maybe it's okay to have the fancy thing. So I mean, to your point, you brought up so much there. >> Michael Arceneaux: Oh yeah [laughter]. >> Anna Sale: I think that line about, we all want to -- part of the reason we are so bad at talking about money is because we're afraid if we show a little bit more of our cards, we're going to show that we're an outlier. And you can see in polling data, in the U.S. Like, even though the middle class has gotten smaller when you look at income levels, if you define it that way, people's self-identification with middle-class has not. So we still, you know, we're having inequality surging, but we still self-identify. And so you want to look like you are part of this whole. So if you start showing your cards, people at your, you know -- there's, for example, you know, me talking about writing about, you know, I went to college and I don't have student debt. My parents paid my way. And to say that out loud, I'm like, oh, people are going to think I'm like a little bit, you know -- what's like I'm going to do in part starts how they judge me. Or if, you know, you're somebody who you're aware that people in your field, like in our field in media, there are people who are doing well and there are people who are not doing well, based on just how their work situation is. And it can be so hard to talk to your colleagues who, you know, are like, you know, doing fine with their staff jobs when you're a freelance person, because you don't want to look like you haven't got -- you know, that you just want to show that you're keeping up with the Joneses. But my argument in the book is like, and part of what I just love -- what you have, you know, sort of led the way in so much of your writing. It's like when actually, when we don't talk about how our money is working in our lives, here are the larger political forces that go un-scrutinized or interrogated, right? And you also are left with fewer tools, because then you're not talking about like, what are you doing with this weird thing with -- you know, how are you doing retirement? There's not pensions anymore. Like, how does that work? You've got to like figure out how to have those conversations on an informal basis to help each other. >> Michael Arceneaux: Retirement. I could say -- I'm kidding, I'll be okay [brief laughter]. [inaudible] but something you said made me think of a question I meant to ask earlier, just about you being from West Virginia and how you write about it, you mentioned like you come from like nicer places. You don't have to take out like loans and stuff. But at the same time, again, I think you, because of the state you're from, you're able to see what everyone else has looked like, and you actually make the effort to pay attention to your surroundings and see people -- does that make -- I sometimes don't know if people realize the class bubbles that they live in. Yet, you seem like you really have had an idea this entire time. And I know part of that is because you grew up in West Virginia, just because of like the region. Also you know what it's like for other states to kind of look the way that you, which forgive me, I forgot Steve Harvey was from West Virginia. So you and Steve Harvey -- wait, are you there? >> Anna Sale: Steve Harvey [laughter]. >> Michael Arceneaux: Yes, there you go. You froze for a second. I was like, what'd I say Steve [brief laughter]. But no, can you tell me a little about how like West Virginia kind of just influenced your writing and thinking? Because I kind of didn't know as a Houstonian, what kind of little quirks make me able to see the world the way I do. >> Anna Sale: Yeah. I mean, I opened the identity chapter with this, because I feel like it's being my West Virginianess, it feels very core to my worldview. And it also is an identity that like, it's one that you know, I can pass another -- I can pick and choose how I use it, you know. It's one of those identities, so it's -- but I will say you know, growing up in a state where you are aware inside the state that like people either look down on you where they don't even like -- it doesn't even register that you're a state like that was also -- you know, people would just always just do like, oh, I have a cousin in Virginia, you know. And you laugh about it when you go home. You're like; all these people don't even know the 50 states. But it affects you. And the other thing about being from West Virginia specifically is like; we were a place, when I was growing up, where we would talk about out-of-state landowners. We would talk about out-of-state coal companies, out-of-state chemical companies, out-of-state gas companies. And so you had this feeling of like, oh, these other elites are the ones who are in charge of our destiny. They are in charge of whether our kids can continue to live in this state. And that really affects a lot about how you see power, because it did not feel like power was located where I lived. And I say that as a daughter of an orthopedic surgeon. You know, like, it's ridiculous that I say that, but that was the -- that's just kind of the collective identity, right? So I did not have a representative experience in West Virginia, but that was the collective identity of West Virginia. And then I left West Virginia and I was like, oh, people -- like in my freshmen dorm, I can remember it being a revelation that a lot of people, like they didn't have a real sense of home. And I was like, oh, where I am from matters to me. And then I became one of those obnoxious college students who was like, let me tell you about my West Virginia identity [brief laughter], and listening to bluegrass music and wearing my West Virginia t-shirts everywhere I could go. You know, so it became this real way of expressing my own sense of otherness of like, I'm not that I am this special thing. But I think the way it -- what you were asking about the way it's affected my journalism. I think it's just; you just listen for what people think that is being overlooked. So it's the ways -- it's a little bit like, you know, having an ear towards the underdog, but also like I'm really aware of what it feels like to feel essentialized and misunderstood. And so I really, I don't want to do that. And I know I do-do that moving through the world. But I want to like set myself up to keep checking myself with my journalism. >> Michael Arceneaux: I know we're going to get audience questions soon, but I had two things I want to ask you about, because I think they were really hard truths that were good for people to read, even if inconvenient at first. With Karena, the therapist in Cali who says -- and then many conversations [inaudible] like family to not -- to just because you're having a conversation, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get closure. And I think I'm poorly paraphrasing, but a lot of people do think that just because you actually brave and bravely in a lot of ways have these difficult conversations that it might not necessarily yield you the result that you think or like some outcome or some closure. And I mean, you can attest, like life don't really work that way. So I was like, how important was it for you to like include that perspective? And yeah, I just kind of feel like for a lot of people, what advice would you give them? Because I'll use myself as an example, even a friend, you know, we kind of have a similar familiar background being from Houston, but I think where we differ a little bit, or at least I had to be reminded in recent months, is that things are going to be the way that they are. Some people are never going to change, and that's okay. You can address certain things that have happened. But after a certain point, it's not about letting it go, for at least in my case, expressing your feelings and just kind of accepting you're not going to get that outcome. Like closure might not really come, so you have to kind of get your arms sense, because I do worry sometimes people think just because they're having this conversation, or just because they're pushing people, that that's going to give them an outcome. And I think that is, you know, respect is kind of based on TV. And it just doesn't really work that way. So can you talk a little about that? >> Anna Sale: I really love that you pulled out that quote, because I think about Karena's line all the time, Karena Montag; she says it in the context of kind of restorative justice trainings. She says -- >> Michael Arceneaux: Yeah. I'm sorry. >> Anna Sale: That's okay. Expect and accept a lack of closure. So she's basically saying like, we know you're here to do the work, but you're not going to feel all tied up at the end. And I think that that's such a useful thing to have in your mind, even when you're starting that conversation with someone in your life that you really, you're looking for to be addressed. And it might be that they say, oh, I've never heard this point of view from you before, and I'm really sorry. And then all of a sudden you feel this healing. I think that does not happen as often in real life as we want it to. But what happens even when you have a hard conversation -- when you have a hard conversation, something does happen. It might not fix the hard thing, hard history you have with a family member, or the fact that someone is gone and you're trying to comfort someone in grief or talking to somebody who you really want to be with and they just don't want to be with you. And you have to figure out how to accept rejection. You know, the reason to have a hard conversation is to get more clarity ultimately, and then you can decide what to do with that information that the other person is giving you. It could be okay I see the limitations of this family member and I see it. And I'm just going to do with that what I can. Like I'm going to -- that means I can talk about them with this set of things in my life, and these sets of things I can't. Or it could be something like, I just need to take a break from this relationship, but I tried. Or it could be some other -- it's like the hard conversation gives you that information for then you to decide what you need to do next. And the family chapter, there's this wonderful line that Hasan Minhaj said in an interview on the show, he was talking about advice his dad gave him about dealing with conflict. And he said, you know, you have to decide like, do you want to be right, or do you want to be together? And I think that that's -- how I like to think about that is like, sometimes you do want to be right. Sometimes it's a core issue and you're like, I cannot, but then all I want to be together. So I'm going to let this slide and I'm going to have a like polite Thanksgiving dinner, for example. >> Michael Arceneaux: I love that quote. And it is a daily battle and one to employ -- we are not [inaudible]. Ann [inaudible], I hope I'm not messing up her name. I thought that was another difficult -- well, not difficult. It was difficult in that she was very honest about how your identity -- sometimes the consequences of your identity are outside of your control. And in this case when she's -- you know, there is an exchange about how she's, you know, talking with tourists and educating them in that burden. But I mean, more specifically in the context of, you know, Native American girls are more subjected to sexual and physical violence, particularly from White men, there's a certain danger, or Native American men are more likely to be in prison or as she uses her own sudden example for, I think it was three ounces of weed and how -- what that led to -- >> Anna Sale: -- [inaudible] prison because he was -- [inaudible]. Yeah. >> Michael Arceneaux: And you mentioned how, you know, you were repeating back her words, seeing as their own little lesson there about how like those words can't matter, but what I just -- also kind of like a comment, but a comment that you can speak to. I thought it was really important that you -- and noting that your own correction about like that power dynamic, more importantly, you were kind of help me explain in really specific terms for maybe a group that doesn't necessarily get to talk about it, like how just being burdened of being an; other. I was like reminding people of the burdens of otherness and how much, you know, some who still carry more of that wave than the rest of us and how -- how do I put -- it reminded me how much it sucks to be born and be different [brief laughter], and how difficult it can be to be as blunt and dark about just being honest about it. But I found it really still encouraging might not be the best word, but yeah, maybe like it was -- that something like he was able to write about it so thoughtfully and carefully, and in a way that frankly honest to say, I wish more White people did [brief laughter]. So I just wanted to say-- >> Anna Sale: That means a lot to me because when I started -- she's the first person you meet in the identity chapter. And the whole time I was writing that chapter, I was like, what are you doing, Anna [brief laughter]? Like, you've really -- this is a big project you've taken. Can I say a little bit about Ann Po [assumed spelling]? >> Michael Arceneaux: Please. >> Anna Sale: I just, I love her. So she's a woman that I met who is an indigenous woman, she's Lakota. She was born on the Pine Ridge Reservation and now lives on the Wind River Reservation here in Wyoming. And I first met her at a powwow that was hosted by a museum here in Wyoming. And she was sitting in a teepee with the flap open and her job, she was paid to sit in the teepee for the tourists who were coming to the powwow to just answer any question about Native American people, indigenous people in America. And I was like, who are you? And why are you [brief laugher] doing this? So that was like how I got to know her. And then we had -- that started our series of conversations. And you know, the thing that I really -- you pulled out -- what I wanted to emphasize was, you know, when she is talking about indigenous identity, she is -- like has such an enormous -- like there's so many layers in which she has to have that conversation. She has to say her own story, which is like, I live on this reservation that's mostly Eastern Shoshone and Arapaho, but I'm Lakota. So you know, I've had to figure out all these other tribal histories and the history of this. And I'm educating kids from all kinds of different tribal backgrounds, so I have to learn about their tribal backgrounds. And then I'm interfacing with White people and this history of sort of missionary work on this reservation and having to explain to people how to -- you know, who Native Americans are, who indigenous people are and what they can do and can't do and how generational trauma works. And then she has this job as an educator of feeling like she needs to look at her young students and say, here's the reality of being an indigenous person, a Native American person in America today. Here are the stats you need to be aware. It's, you know, her version of the talk. And so I wanted, because I just really wanted to emphasize, like when you say how to have a hard conversation about identity, the whole, the first question you have to ask is like, how am I oriented in this conversation? Am I being explained to, because I am someone who is thought to not know what it feels like to be othered? You know, I can say for me as a White person, I haven't experienced that very much in most of the spaces I work in, or I move in in the world. I feel like I can -- but based on what I look like, I can figure out how to belong. And a lot of people in America don't have that experience. And then the question is, are you talking to someone with whom you share a really key identity piece, or are you talking across difference, because then that also affects, you know, listening and the questions you ask. And I just really think the thing with Ann Po that I just love is, you know, she's funny. She caught like one moment that I just think is like the [brief laugher] funniest thing. We were driving around the Wind River Reservation, and on the reservation there is a Memorial for Sacagawea who's Shoshone woman who worked with Lewis and Clark, was a guide for Lewis and Clark during their trip to discover and study America. And I said to Ann Po, I was like, oh, I need -- this is so interesting to me. You know, I'm kin to Meriwether Lewis and I've thought about like, what does this mean? The legacy and my family of this idea of being, you know, a part of Western expansion and also his family enslaved people. And she says to me, well, if it makes you feel better, I have a relative who killed 23 White men [laughter]. >> Michael Arceneaux: I was waiting -- I was waiting for the Jordan. I was like, she does that [brief laughter]. I laughed and laughed again when [inaudible]. >> Anna Sale: She is like, Anna, you have your thing, you have got to work through. And like, this is not -- I'm not going to comfort you or like talk this through with like -- and also just like that we were on different sides of this thing. She's like my relatives were killing people who looked like you, you know, we were fighting, we were at war. And I just -- that directness, it just like what a gift. I just loved it. >> Michael Arceneaux: She felt like a gift because it was -- not only was she funny, but the directness even about the ugliness of what it's like to be other in this country was relatable in different contexts, but it's similar. And so I actually was wondering, you have so many different people's stories in the book. You have your stories in there, but kind of wonder -- I thought about -- is there any common threads that you found, not necessarily with every single person that you've talked to and yourself, but in the midst of kind of like collecting these different stories and reporting and sharing your own, were there any kind of commonalities that you found just in terms of how people may be say handle kind of dealing with how to deal with struggle, how to deal with conflict, how to kind of process that, that [inaudible]? >> Anna Sale: You know the main thing I came to you, and it was interesting because it was in the order that I worked on the chapters. I feel like starting with death. Certainly, the ways we encounter death in our lives is different depending on who we are and what our life histories are. But there's also something very universal about death. We will all one day not be here. And when people -- you know, people we love who are here or then not here. So there is something that is like, when you say grief, there's something -- there are universal threads there. And I felt like as I kept working on sex and then money and then family and identity, what I was really working on was these conversations are hard, because you have to make room for that gap of difference. And you're not going to be able to use words to kind of paper over it. You know, you have to -- for me, what I came around to was thinking like so much of these hard conversations is about making the space in your mind and in your worldview to say that person's reality is really different from mine, and I'm going to hear them, and accept it as true, and also accept the limitations I have to and what that must be like. So that's why I need to listen, you know. And I think that's true in identity, but it's also true in money. Like the money conversations, talking about the -- part of the reason we don't talk about money is because if you start uncovering the ways you're different, you want to kind of like, be like, oh, well, I'm sure your dreams are all going to come true and everything's going to be fine. Like you don't want to just -- you want to be able to comfort that material difference. And in fact, you have to look at that material difference to understand how our world is working, like you can't look away. >> Michael Arceneaux: I want more people to listen to that. We do have some questions. I'm going to start with the first. How do you approach having hard conversations with those very resistant to having hard conversations with [inaudible]? [ Laughter ] >> Anna Sale: Yeah. I've gotten this question a lot. And I think that like, you know, there's no surefire way to talk someone into doing this with you. I think you can be deliberate about the groundwork as far as, like how you -- what are the first words you use when you were trying to say to someone I want to talk to you about something, it's important to me. And then in signaling that, and then saying, is now a good time to do that. And kind of like your first, like really actually thinking, like preparing the words, I do this when I'm preparing for an interview, preparing the words that whatever you're opening, kind of like, I want to talk to you about this, and I've been wondering what this has been like for you, like, kind of in the most generous way you can, so that you are indicating to that person, I'm going to really try hard to hear you. And I need you to try hard to hear me. And that is not always going to work. You know, there's, you know, people in our lives and also all of us, like at different moments, we can't do it, you know, or it's not a conversation we want to have. And like -- and that's okay, like, you, you can say, I can't do this right now, or I can't do this right now with you, like, because of what's -- where I am [audio cuts out] now. But do you think it's more about, you know, what we can control is the effort we put forth. We can't control how somebody responds. >> Michael Arceneaux: You answered my follow up [laughter]. Please go on. >> Anna Sale: Well, I think that that's really hard. You know, it's so hard, and it takes work, and it takes new work every single time you're having a conversation, because like, you know, when you're talking about this hard stuff, you want to problem solve it. You also want to have your set of facts be the ones that win the day. So you're going to kind of like, you might get into battling mode. And to me, it's like talk as slowly as you can. That's what I try to do. When I notice myself speeding up -- this would be hard for you [brief laughter], someone who speaks so fast. But I try -- because I noticed when I -- getting into defensive reactive mode, I speed up in it. And I don't leave those spaces to really make sure I'm hearing what somebody is trying to say to me. >> Michael Arceneaux: If I could add, I would say my old college professor, Peggy Lewis, told me about the Speedy Gonzalez thing when I talk so fast to tap my foot, that helps [laughter] a little bit. It actually does if I remember to tap my foot. Otherwise, I will talk as fast as most people from a certain part of Louisiana. And the other question it says, happy to see you're still talking about and writing about hard things since you wrote about West Virginia in my class at Stanford. Oh. Can you talk about -- can you talk about the topic --? >> Anna Sale: Who is that? >> Michael Arceneaux: I don't know who it is. But can you talk about the topic of personal vulnerability when speaking up? >> Anna Sale: Oh yeah. I mean that's the other work before you start a hard conversation, is like, what am I willing to be a little bit more open about? You know, because I think that personal vulnerability is so much -- one of the opening quotes I have in the book. It's from one of my dear friends Ann Simpson. And she just says openness creates openness. Like it's basic, simple, but it's true. Like if I tell you a little bit more about where I don't feel steady or certain, or have struggled, someone is going to come back with you, come back and feel a little bit more willing to be open with you. And you know, writing this book, I thought a lot about my divorce, which happened more than 10 years ago. And it's interesting to think about, oh, in that time, that was a time when I was so seized up with just shame and wanting to fix, and like sad and overwhelmed. And I didn't have a lot of perspective about vulnerability and not. But like, I just tried to like -- I just tried to do my best. And I look back at both me and my ex-husband with such tenderness because we were trying, and we were vulnerable, and we both got hurt. And, you know, it was painful. You know, divorce is painful, because it's not an outcome that you expect. >> Michael Arceneaux: Right. >> Anna Sale: But you know what, it was like exactly what needed to happen. And so I think that you know, a lot of these hard conversations, is like, it's the very deep work of like, accepting that some disagreements and bad outcomes and hurt is a part of life. >> Michael Arceneaux: I just adore your perspective. I think it might be maybe the last question. We'll see. Do you think our institutions, government banks of higher education are getting any better at having hard conversations about money with the public? I haven't a thought about this [brief laughter]. This is your question [laughter]. >> Anna Sale: I will let you please, like -- no, like, you know. >> Michael Arceneaux: Yeah. I was literally going to say, this is the perfect time to plug it both because no. >> Anna Sale: So I mean, I just, you know, I watch -- I think they, they kind of want to. Like, they know it's interesting -- >> Michael Arceneaux: But don't know how. >> Anna Sale: Advertising because they're like, do you feel like you needed a big -- some help figuring out your whole life with money? Like yes, I do. And then it's like, so invest these mutual funds, you know, it's like they -- >> Michael Arceneaux: Exactly. Or someone paid off $80,000 with like a bonus from the military and inheritance, and like some kind of refund no one else will get, but you should feel bad about yourself because apparently, you're not disciplined enough. It's very unrealistic. So I just, again, generally love the way that you write about money, because it just kind of, not only just speaks to like the basic truths about how money functions in our society. It tells me what to do to with deal with it when you don't feel that great, because I know what it's like to not feel great with money. And I do think again, that level of sensitivity is often missing. I do think people do want to try. It's just the way our big media ecosystem is collectively set up. It's not enough people who actually, who I think like you, are just willing to look outside of their bubbles and just kind of maybe just really meet people where they are, and just kind of talk more practically about things instead of kind of just assuming a money mutual fund will make your life better, if you can get it or whatever. >> Anna Sale: Yeah. I mean, like one thing else I want to say is like, it's something I think you have done really well in all of your writing about money, is like the ways our money lives are constructed are, they are created by systems and they are structural. And we are also individual actors within these systems. So figuring out what are the sets of feelings that I need to have when I can see that these systems are like not working, but also I made these choices. So what do I feel guilty about? What do I feel mad about? And all of those feelings, like that is part of what happens when you have an honest conversation about money, like our political debates around money want to sort of pull us to one or the other polls of it's all systemic and structural, or it's all about personal agency and our choices, when it's both, you know. And I interviewed a woman who I just love. I wish she was president of the world of talking about money, named Danielle Munoz, who works at Sacramento State University in student assistance. And she told me, you know, she sees a lot of students who are just struggling. They can't pay the rent. They're struggling to get their tuition covered with -- you know the cobbling together assistance and loans. And she will tell them both, this is not you; this is a system's issue. And also we have to approach this with radical acceptance, which means for her, the way she defines that is like, this is the world right now. And so we are not going to pretend it is not like this. So we have to then decide, what are your next steps? 1, 2, 3, you know. And she described radical acceptance as like, when you have a flat tire, you might be really mad and you might say, these stupid potholes gave me this flat tire. But you also can't drive your car unless you fix your tire. So you've got to do both. And I just think like, that's such really like clear advice. That's not shaming, you know? And we just need more of that. >> Michael Arceneaux: So much shame, says the ex-Catholic. I want to combine these two questions to [inaudible]. Do you see big generational differences with our comfortability broaching certain topics? And I'm going to combine that with, how do you prepare -- the question of how do you prepare your own kids to have hard conversations no matter the topic? >> Anna Sale: Yeah. I mean, certainly I think that like, we can all see like generationally we're primed in different ways of what's comfortable to talk about in public, and what's comfortable to share. But I will tell you, some of the most like graphic conversations I have had about sex and relationships have been with older women friends who just don't give a F. They're just like, they don't -- they're just ready. They're like, here's what I went through, and I'm going to tell you. And then you show up in their lives -- >> Michael Arceneaux: Older women have the best [inaudible] the way it is [laughter]. >> Anna Sale: When they can see you are going to listen, they will talk. So I love that. So I don't think it's a general rule. It's about just, you know, figuring out kind of responding to prompts and signals and paying attention to what kind of conversation might be possible. And that's the same thing I've found as a parent, you know, with -- I have very young kids, four and two. And I'm like, let's talk about death. Like I'm ready, like, I want to like introduce these big concepts. And, you know, it comes up and I'll be like, you know, I'll be like, oh, you know, do you know Hart's [assumed spelling] father just died? We're remembering him right now. And she's going to be sad, but what are the things that you remember about him? And just kind of trying to create the idea that like death is something that we can look at. You know, we don't have to pretend it's not there. But the thing that a four -- certainly a two-year-old just doesn't care, but like a four-year-old will like indicate when she's had enough. Like, I'll be like wanting to, and she'll be like [brief laughter], popsicles. You know, they just like they're done. So that's also good training for like any conversation, you know, when it's -- the juice has been juiced for what can come in that moment. You've got to like, you know, okay, we can revisit this later. >> Michael Arceneaux: Love four-year-olds. It's been a pleasure speaking with you. I am so used to you interviewing me [brief laughter], so this is different. I hope I didn't let you down. But I just want to, once again, compliment your book. I just generally, again, think you've made a really great contribution. One thing I have always liked about your show and then I got to be on it and just having talked with you, is that now more than ever have I realized, and I still have hope for humanity, but a lot of people don't even think -- I mean, again, I think a lot of people want to be better [brief laughter], but sometimes you'd be surprised at how -- because they don't know how to try it or never actually really make the effort. But I guarantee if you pick up this book and reading other people's stories and reading yours, you not only see that you're not alone, is that you kind of really do need to just push yourself sometimes to kind of get over certain humps and have those difficult conversations. And if nothing else, just kind of face what bothers you, because another reason that we all kind of deserve comfort in like these crazy, crazy times. But I just, I loved your book so much. It reminded me so much of what I've always liked about talking about you, that level of sensitivity and thoughtfulness that I wish more people applied. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Everyone should read your book or listen to Death, Sex, and Money. I look forward to talking to you again at some capacity, probably back when you're doing [brief laughter] the hosting like you're supposed to but thank you for making time. I will email my other question to you because I actually will say, I don't know how it feels if my listeners were asking me questions at doctor's office [laughter]. But I think that's also just to let -- you know you make people comfortable. This made me feel like a Mary J. Blige album. Like even if I get a little sad because I [inaudible] I'm bopping at the end. Yes. >> Anna Sale: Oh, that is -- >> Michael Arceneaux: Yes, because it gives me sad-happy [inaudible]. So I was trying to figure out how to give you that. That's exactly how I want to say. Thank you, Anna. >> Anna Sale: Thank you, Michael. >> Michael Arceneaux: And congratulations again. >> Anna Sale: Thank you. >> Michael Arceneaux: Thank you to everyone watching. I got to remember I'm the host. Thanks for listening. I don't know what else to do now. You're the host, what do I do? [laughter] >> Anna Sale: Thank you, New York Public Library. Thank you everyone for joining us. >> Michael Arceneaux: Thank you everybody. >> Speaker: Thank you for joining us tonight. On screen, we are showing closing slides. This slide contains an image of the featured book jacket. The cover is cream colored with the title appearing in large black letters. Let's Talk About Hard Things by Anna Sale, host of the podcast Death, Sex and Money. There is a purple pink rose printed horizontally, with its green thorny stem threading through the word "hard" in the title. Let's Talk about Hard Things is available for purchase online from the library shop on.nypl.org/shopLIVE. Proceeds benefit the New York Public Library. Reserve a copy for free with the New York Public Library card. Visit tonight's event page to find this title in a variety of formats nypl.org/LIVE. The last slide shows LIVE from NYPL upcoming events. Monday, May 24th, 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Which Side of History, Chelsea Clinton with Jim Steyer. Tuesday, May 25th, 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Immigration History, Politics and Prejudices, Jia Lynn Yang with Caitlin Dickerson. Wednesday, May 26, 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time, A Drop of Treason, Jonathan Stevenson with Jean Strouse, co-presented with The Dorothy and Lewis B. Coleman Center for Scholars and Writers. For more information and to register, visit nypl.org/LIVE.