2022-05-23 LIVE from NYPL Civic Education and Democracy in Crisis: A Conversation in Memory of Judge Robert A. Katzmann Featuring: Khin Mai Aung, New York Executive Director, Generation Citizen Judge Victor Marrero, Senior District Judge of the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York and Co-Chair, Robert A. Katzmann Justice for All Courts and the Community Initiative Jenna Ryall, Director, Civics for All, New York City Department of Education Jesse Wegman, The New York Times editorial board >> Fay Rosenfeld: Good evening. I'm Fay Rosenfeld. And I'm the Vice President of Public Programs at the New York Public Library. Thank you all for joining us here at Live From NYPL. tonight's conversation is inspired by and dedicated to the memory of one of our country's greatest jurists, the Honorable Robert A. Katzmann, former chief judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit and an esteemed and beloved trustee of the NYPL, who passed away in June 2021. The first federal judge to hold a doctorate in political science alongside a JD, Judge Katzmann, or Bob, as he insisted we call him at the library, left an extraordinary legacy in many areas. He was known for his influential scholarship in the area of judicial legislative relations. His brilliant legal mind has beautifully and carefully written opinions, his humility, his compassion, his leadership, his tireless advocacy for immigrant justice. But what brings us together this evening is his deep commitment to and pioneering work in the area of civics education. In 2014, he launched Justice for All, courts and the community project, an innovative outreach initiative that is now named for him. And it's being replicated in courts around the country. And we're honored to have the cochair of Justice for All, Bob's colleague on the bench and fellow library trustee, United States District Judge Victor Marrero joining us on the panel this evening. Here at the NYPL, where civic engagement is in our DNA, Bob's guidance and example will help ensure the library remains a trusted source of knowledge and opportunity for all our patrons. All of us at the library miss him and we extend our condolences to his wife, Jennifer Callahan, and the rest of his family. Joining tonight's conversation are experts and leaders from law, education and policy who, like Bob, understand that the future of our democracy depends on a well-informed citizenry and who likewise engaged in taking steps to address the national crisis and civics education and engagement. In addition to Judge Marrero, we're joined by Khin Mai Aung, New York Executive Director of Generation Citizen, and Jenna Ryall, Director of Civics for All at the New York City Department of Education. Our moderator is Jesse Wegman, a member of the New York Times editorial board, who knew and worked with Bob. Jesse's most recent book, Let the People Pick the President: The Case for Abolishing the Electoral College, was published by St. Martin's Press in 2020. And he's currently working on a new book about James Wilson, a forgotten founding father. As I think many of you know, tonight's program was supposed to take place in person in our beautiful Trustees Room at the library. But Jesse is recovering from COVID and couldn't travel. So I want to thank him especially and all our panelists for their flexibility in agreeing to convene this conversation online, and of course, all of you for joining us here. I'll turn things over to Jesse in just a moment to more formally introduce the program. Jesse and the panelists will be happy to take your questions. You can feel free to share them in the chat or by emailing them to publicprograms@nypl.org. And they'll get to as many questions as they can. We at the library are so proud to offer our programming for free. And we're grateful to the donors who make that possible, including [inaudible] Bartos, Adam Bartos and the late Celeste Bartos, and of course all of you our wonderful supporters and friends near and far. We're also very pleased to co present tonight's program with the library's new Center for Educators in Schools, which is a system wide initiative that's designed to make all of the library's resources available and easy for educators to use. And coming soon, essential will be producing civics themed curricula based on the library's research collections. So now, please welcome Jesse Wegman, Judge Victor Marrero, Khin Mai Aung and Jenna Ryall. Thank you. >> Jesse Wegman: Hi, everybody. Thank you, Fay, for that introduction. And thanks so much to the New York Public Library for hosting this event, especially to you Fay and to Aiden and Terry and the whole team there and of course to Jennifer, who has been very central to organizing this event and others in Bob's memory. Over the last year, we've been in pretty regular touch. And I'm really thrilled that that this has finally come together. I apologize for these circumstances. I hate being virtual for two years. I guess I'm lucky in that in one regard. But I thought I had dodged COVID yet again. But this time it found me. And there was nothing I could do about it. So thanks for accommodating these circumstances. And I'm sure -- I hope soon enough, we will all be gathering again in person. I really -- I am honored to be here moderating the first of what I'm sure will be many talks in honor of the judge, Bob Katzman, who affected so many lives, both people here at this talk as well as many I think we'll never meet. The title of tonight's talk -- the panel tonight is a Civic Education and Democracy in Crisis. And I think that exactly sums up what we face. We are at a, I would say, uniquely fraught and fragile moment in this nation's history. I myself and many people I know and talk to on a regular basis with much deeper knowledge of this country's history and its politics are deeply concerned about where things are right now and where they may be going. And I think the question of our understanding of our government -- the questions about how government works and how -- what role we as citizens play in that government is central to this crisis that we're facing right now. And so I think it's a perfect time and a perfect topic to remember Bob with. As Fay pointed out just a moment ago, Bob was the first ever federal judge to be confirmed with a PhD in Political Science. It was shocking to me when I found that out. It just -- I just assumed that many judges before had been trained in political science, but apparently none to the degree that Bob had. And I think as we know, it showed deeply in his work, in his jurisprudence, in his -- in the depth of his thought about how government works and how the branches interacted with one another and how human beings function with all of their complexities and imperfections. But you know, there's something else about Bob that any of you who knew him personally knew well and was almost as rare as that PhD, which was his gentleness and his humility, which just exuded -- he exuded in every word that he spoke and every action he took. With all due respect to my friends, my many friends in the law, these are not qualities that are often associated with that profession. And Bob had them in abundance. And I will say that among the many worthy causes Bob championed in his years on the bench, we're going to focus tonight on this one of surpassing important civics education. The statistics are by now depressingly familiar. One in three Americans cannot name a single branch of government. Nearly three in four Americans do not know that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. And 10% of college graduates think Judge Judy is a member of the Supreme Court. These numbers are concerning on so many levels. It reflects how separated so many Americans are from their government, the government that they should be, by rights, in control of. And we know that people who are not involved or who feel removed from, detached from, unrepresented by their government, are often -- you know, they keep their distance. And then that creates this vicious circle where there are assumptions that are made. And there's anger that doesn't get addressed. And there are issues that don't get addressed. And we wind up with the kind of situation that we've seen over the last few years with widespread distrust in government, physical attack on the Capitol building early last year by people who genuinely believed they were being lied to. So there's a huge rift in society right now. You know, there's a lot of reasons for that. There's a lot of factors that play into it. But a really important one, I believe, and I think Bob believed is the lack of a comprehensive civics education so that Americans can understand exactly how this system that was created and run in their name works. As Bob told me back in 2018, when I interviewed him for the civics initiative that he and Judge Marrero began at the federal courts, he said, "How can we expect the public to support the judiciary and the Constitution and the rule of law when they know so little about it? There needs to be a shared understanding of the principles underlying our governmental system. If that is lost, then what I worry about is that our support for our institutions will go under." Obviously, an accurate impression remarked by the Judge, but also a very sympathetic one. I think he wasn't expressing anger at people. He was genuinely concerned that they were not being educated to the degree that they need to be. So along with Judge Marrero, Judge Katzmann founded Justice for All. I think this was in 2014, if I have it correct. This is a civics education initiative that would, as Bob put it, "bring the communities to the courts and the courts to the communities." So I love that phrase. The initiative works directly with many high school students and includes online learning component, live moot courts and other immersive experiences. I will say watching Bob and Judge Marrero meet with a group of students early in the program back in 2018, I was really moved. And I could tell that Bob felt this work in his soul. He told me when I was interviewing him about it, after the kids had left, he said, "When I've done moot courts, I take the students back to the robing room, and I say, 'put on the robe.' And these are often kids of color. I say, 'this could be your future.' And you really can see in their faces, oh, yes, this could be their future." Now I always remember Bob telling me that. He actually said that when he was sitting in that seat from the photo that was posted at the beginning of the evening. That was a shot that was taken by the Times photographer. So I remember well sitting in that room with Judge Marrero and Bob and him making that comment. And I was so touched by it. It's just -- it was such an empathic reaction to the experience of not just anybody who doesn't know enough about their government, but in particular, to the immigrant experience and to the experience of people who are not generally treated as full members of American society and therefore made to feel as though they are somehow on the outside. Bob did everything that he could to bring people in, to be inclusive, to make people feel like this was theirs. And I think that's so important. And I only wish there were more people like Bob in the upper reaches of government. One of the students that I interviewed that day that I visited the courthouse and watched the program in action, she said to me -- soon after she got there, she said, "I felt like I was kind of small, and there was something really big going on." Now I should say I feel like that also, a lot of the time. And it was one of Bob's great gifts to make you feel not only not small, but as big as the rest of the world around you and as big as everybody else. And he did it in this trademark, gentle, menchi way. In my case, he would take me out to lunch at these, you know, hole in the wall Italian joints near the courthouse. And we would just talk about the law. And he was endlessly interested and endlessly kind. And I just felt so grateful to be able to discuss, you know, finer points of law as well as broader jurisprudential principles with somebody who was so accessible and so -- cared so much about making the law accessible to regular people like me. You know, making such connections to the machinery of our government is so important for all of us. And I do think that there's this real sense reflected in the statistics I was quoting earlier, that as a society, we have largely been failing at this in recent decades. So I wanted to open up the panel discussion by turning to Jenna Ryall first for her perspective. As you heard, Jen is the Director of the Civics For All Program that's run through the New York City Department of Education. I want to ask you a two-part question. First of all, am I right to be this concerned about the state of American civics education and what it portends for the future of our society? And second, can you tell us what Civics For All does? >> Jenna Ryall: Sure. To your first question -- oh, sorry, I think I -- did I freeze for a second? You can hear me okay? >> Jesse Wegman: We can hear you good. Yeah. >> Jenna Ryall: So you had given us a number of, of disappointing statistics to start off. So I'm going to give you what I hope will, at the end of my explanation, feel like a positive one, which is that today, during the school day, one in 300 Americans were sitting in a New York City public school classroom. And so that number is what I start a lot of my professional learning sessions with for teachers because it kind of takes them aback for a second. It's a huge responsibility when you consider being responsible for the democracy education of one in 300 Americans. But I think when you consider the impact that we can have as a school system, that is prioritizing the civic education of students from kindergarten through 12th grade right now in the midst of this crisis of democracy, I think we can feel a little more positive about the future, that these are young people who are getting a democracy education starting in kindergarten, up through high school and will be going out into a system and a world that they understand how to participate in and that they've practiced participating in. So the reason I feel so confident about that is the program that I'm the director of. It's the Civics for All Program. And so we're the civics education branch of the Department of Education. We started out as a mayoral initiative under Mayor de Blasio in 2018. And we've grown into part of the Social Studies Department, which is the civics content area. And so there are a number of components to our initiative, the largest being a K to 12 civics education curriculum. And that is currently available in every single New York City Department of Education School. And I say that, and I want to say it really loudly here, because not everyone who is in a Department of Education school knows that that is available to them. It is physically in your building if you are a teacher. It is available online to all New York City schools. And we provide professional learning to support teachers in integrating that curriculum into the teaching and learning that they're already doing. And then aside from that, we have a specialized program called the Civics for All Partner Schools Program for schools that want civics and student voice to be what I say the water they swim in. And we're expanding that program as the years go on. We're also responsible for a civics week and the student voter registration drive that happens across the city. In the last three years, we've registered 60,000 new voters, which is really exciting. We do a participatory budgeting program, participatory budgeting in your school to get our students to start to understand how the city's budget works and how that impacts the budget of their school. They get to spend some of their school's budget themselves on something that they decide together is a need for the community. We have an action civics component of our curriculum as well. We have student opportunities, teacher opportunities. So yes, I think you are absolutely any of us, right? Anyone who's paying attention is concerned about the state of democracy. But I also think anyone who's paying attention to the young people can start to feel like maybe we're headed in the right direction and paying attention to the programs that are available, like the Justice for All Program, like Generation Citizen, like Civics for All, that the work is happening, and maybe it hasn't been happening as long as it should have. And we are seeing the results of that. But hopefully, we're riding the ship a little bit. >> Jesse Wegman: It's thrilling to hear this. And it's so -- it is encouraging to hear what you're doing. And one of the things I wanted to ask you to zero in on a little is the age range of this program. You know, I think I and most people here think of civics education, we think of high school, or maybe middle school. And that's certainly how I experienced it. And your program starts in kindergarten. I was looking through the really voluminous materials that the program provides. And I saw exercises that involved, you know, a different set of three R's, rights, rules and responsibilities. So for example, one of the exercises is to teach children, five-year-olds, to distinguish between fair rules and unfair rules. So talk to us a little bit about what it means to teach five-year-olds, six-year-olds civics and what kind of reaction you get. >> Jenna Ryall: I think if you ask any kindergarten teacher what their primary job is, they're telling you they're helping teach people how to be people. Right? In kindergarten, you're learning that socialization. You're learning how to be in community. And when we think about civics, what is that but how to be a member of your community. And so that starts with your classroom community, your school community. So much of the work that is already being done in kindergarten classrooms, in first grade classrooms, in second grade classrooms, is civics. It's just not being named as such. Right? If you think back to those very early things you learned in school, it's how to be together, how to listen, what's fair. Every kindergartener -- I'm sure every parent of young children can tell you kids know what's fair and what's not fair. And they're very quick to tell you. Right? And so taking that understanding of what's fair and not fair and applying it to what they may see out in the world is not as big of a jump as you may think it is. And so, you know, teaching civics to kindergarten and first grade may not look the same as it looks for 11th graders and 12th graders. But our youngest students are also members of our democracy. And so treating them as such and helping them to understand what that means as early as possible means that they're going to have that sustained effort and that sustained interest in being a good citizen of whichever communities they're belonging to in the moment. >> Jesse Wegman: That's great. Thank you. I'd like to move on to Khin Mai Aung, who is the Director of Generation Citizen. Khin, would you talk to us about what civics and civics education means to you? >> Khin Mai Aung: I mean, I think what we do at Generation Citizen is applying social studies and civics learning to kind of real-world issues, which is actually civics that, I think, Jenna and, you know, or her staff at DOE also do. And so what we have is a, like, supplementary program that's about applying social studies learning to real world issues like whether there's a broken traffic light across the street from the school or whatnot. But I think, you know, it's interesting how civics has been -- more generally, I think it's interesting how civics has become a little bit politicized and how -- I mean, it used to be something that was kind of bipartisan in which everyone could get around. And I feel like for Generation Citizen, in addition to our work in New York, we also work in some more politically mixed areas outside of New York City. And much of our work in those places are nonpartisan. And it's about kind of making things better in the community. And, like, figuring out how to engage with the local, political, environment to make things better in the community. And I think that that is really -- that's at the heart of it. At the same time, I also think that we need to keep in mind that kind of what happened in January of last year, with the, you know, the incident at the Capitol is not civics. Right? We need to be careful, like, what is civics and what is not, but also trying to get back to a place of thinking of civics as a bipartisan effort to improve our communities. And as Generation Citizens, specifically, most of our work is in New York City. But we also are expanding to the rest of state. And part of our interest in the rest of state is to work with some of these other cities where there's large refugee and immigrant communities that are being resettled and to kind of be the first -- like, knowing that the schools are the first connection to our democracy, to help, through the schools, engage new American communities into our democracy and to become -- to learn about our institutions. >> Jesse Wegman: I'm so glad you brought that up and the delicacy of this topic, which I think most of us probably did think was not that controversial for most of our lives. And suddenly, in a world and in America where everything seems to be divided almost immediately down partisan lines, and you're either one side or you're the other, it seems like I don't -- it's hard to imagine how civics education could avoid that same fate. So I'm really curious how -- and I'd love to hear from you on this as well as Jenna, how you navigate those turbulent -- those choppy political waters. You know, it's a -- this is a really tough time. We've seen over the last two years, especially of the pandemic, how much parents care about what their children are being taught and who is teaching them. And so it just seems like this is another mind field. And even things that would seem to be straightforward facts about how American government functions might be now up for debate. So talk a little bit, both of you. I'd love to hear how you manage those conversations and what sorts of hurdles you face when you try to deal with people with maybe different political backgrounds or beliefs. >> Khin Mai Aung: I mean, what I would say, and I'm curious about Jenna's experiences as well, I mean, I would say that like -- so I joined Generation Citizen about a year ago. And so, you know, I joined about a year into the pandemic. And so what I, like, have learned from our experiences in the early part of the pandemic as well as in the time that I've been here is that during a period in which -- and our program is only in secondary schools. It doesn't span the entire K through 12. Like, at a point when middle and high school students were not in school at all or were only in school at very interrupted times that our type of programming and as well as any other, like, broader, you know, action civics programming, I think that that was implemented through Civics for All was an opportunity for students to engage with their communities, their school communities and their broader communities and to come together around these issues. And I think that this year, our program has able to -- has been able to do -- engage in a large expanse in New York City, in part because we've been able to really hone in on how we're able to support students connection with their communities through socioemotional learning and culturally responsive standing education, which overlaps with our work. So I think that like -- it's -- I mean, I think that it helps, like, with connecting with one's communities, which does not have to be political, which I guess brings us back to where we're at. We do some work outside of the city, much more politically mixed environments where I don't think that it becomes very political when you talk about our work. It's more about, like, fixing issues in the community. But I think if you talk about those issues, then it becomes more fraught. But I think if you focus about particular issues in the community, I think that that's where the breakthroughs can be had. >> Jenna Ryall: I would definitely agree with that. I think also something -- and part of the benefit of starting so young with civics education is -- and I'm paraphrasing. I'm sure this is a quote that I, you know, read elsewhere. But for so long, we were taught to avoid talking about politics, avoid talking about religion, avoid -- you know, rather than being taught how to have those conversations in a civil manner. And so much about what is ugly -- I mean, there's so many things that are ugly about the state of the way that we disagree these days. But it's that -- it's we need our young people to become our older people who understand how to disagree, but also how to disagree from a place that is supported by evidence. And a lot of that is news literacy and media literacy and wanting to make sure that our students aren't just shutting each other out because they disagree or coming to the table with claims that they heard somewhere that they cannot support or they cannot back up. Right? And so wanting to make sure that from a very young age, part of civics is understanding our differences and understanding how to communicate about those differences and also understanding that there's a difference. Facts don't need your -- you don't have to like them. Right? Facts don't require your approval. And so teaching students that from a very young age, there's nothing controversial about that. Right? And it's getting our students to understand that. It's also making sure that our civics work is student centered. And that, I think, is one of the key components of our Civics for All work, because if you look at those lessons, a lot of them can't move forward if the students aren't bringing their lived experience to the table. And our students' lived experience can't be controversial. Right? If a student is telling you who they are and a student is telling you what they've experienced, we need to learn how to listen and grow from that and use that to inform the education that we're providing to our young people. It's not -- education isn't one size fits all. And so it's really important that civics education and civics teachers are centering the students and centering the community that the students are participating in and that they're looking at their students communities from an asset-based perspective and using that as the content for the civics education. No, I was just making sure I got it right. >> Khin Mai Aung: No, no. I was just going to say, like, real briefly, like, I'm glad you brought up the whole issue with the controversial topics. So something that we've been working on with our coalition democracy where the New York Coalition, which I think you guys also work with, has been around -- there's been debate at -- which I know you know, Jenna, but, like, for the rest of the audience around the concept of controversial topics and discussion of controversial topics in schools, which I think it's similar to and related to -- you can push back around discussions around, like, action civics as well as critical race theory, which is -- obviously, it's something different at some other states, which I think in our state, there have been in other places, mostly outside of New York City, around controversial topics. And so we at Democracy Ready have put -- has put -- we've put together, like, a white paper with some, like, best practices in terms of how to talk about, exactly as you said, Jenna, issues that could be -- issues that reasonable minds might be able to disagree. And I think that's exactly the point of civics, that reasonable minds might have to -- might disagree, but which are an important topic of conversation in our democracy. And that's exactly why we have those dialogues. That's precisely why we have those dialogues. >> Jesse Wegman: This is great conversation. I love it. And I want to come back to both of these points, this point about how people learn to disagree with one another, and then the other part that Jenna mentioned about experience and what people bring and how people learn about being members of society through experience. But I want to turn to Judge Marrero before we do that. The Judge, as we said, cochaired the Justice for All initiative with Judge Katzmann. And I want to ask you, Judge -- you know, I mentioned earlier when we talk about civics education, I think what pops up in most people's minds is high school civics class, middle school civics class. But of course, you know, Bob understood that a proper civics education lasts for a lifetime, and that even today, many of our government leaders will probably fail such a test. In one of the Brookings reports that Bob produced before he became a judge, he found that members of Congress are woefully unfamiliar with leading decisions made by the DC Circuit Court of Appeals, one of the most influential federal appeals courts in the country. And he also suggested that judges can communicate directly with lawmakers in a way that preserves the judges' independence, while at the same time improving knowledge and understanding both between and among the branches. In other words, Bob knew that judges aren't supposed to make policy but that they could help improve the policymaking process. Can you speak about the issue of civics education at the level of our government leaders and how -- what role you think judges can and do play in helping make civics a little better understood and helping that process -- helping smooth that process? >> Judge Victor Marrero: Sure. Thank you for having me in this program. I'm delighted to be able to participate in honoring the memory and legacy of my good friend, Judge Robert Katzmann. Let me give you a little bit of background as to how Justice for All came about and what are its underpinnings. The idea was to expand public understanding of the role of the -- and operations of the courts. And as you noted earlier, to bring the courts to the community and the communities to the courts through outreach programs of education to benefit all members of the public, with particular focus on students and teachers. To put the initiative in context and answer your questions about other branches of the government, we must consider three fundamental principles of our democracy that Judge Katzmann considered vital for its survival and that he saw under threat from various sources. And those are independence of the judiciary, the rule of law and equality under the law. Those principles are very much cherished by Judge Katzmann. And if you read his opinions and his books and his talks, those three principles are very much the bedrock of his belief, and ultimately, his legacy. As you indicated, Jesse, earlier, the protection and preservation of these principles depend on one essential quality. And that is an informed public. And yet, as Judge Katzmann said, and as you've noted, the level of education of the public about civics and the role of the courts and the role of the other branches of the government is quite dismal. And you've given us some specific examples, some of them even humorous. Judge Katzmann's favorite was the anecdote about Judge Judy. >> Jesse Wegman: I'm sure it's Judge Judy's favorite, too. >> Judge Victor Marrero: Probably. So Judge Katzmann launched Justice for All to address these deficiencies in public knowledge and thereby to strengthen the court's efforts to promote constitutional values critical to our government's survival, specifically, under the guidance of a committee of judges and lawyers and community leaders, he organized personally and chaired. This is the committee that I cochair -- I've cochaired with Judge Katzmann. It has been continued by Judge Katzmann's successor as chief judge, Judge Deborah Livingston, who appointed a cochair in Judge Joseph Bianco. So the program is very much well, alive and still as active as ever and rendering service to the communities through a series of programs and initiatives, which I could briefly describe, unless you want to turn to another topic. Of great concern to Judge Katzmann is especially what is happening today in the age of disinformation, where the judge's role in the courts, essentially, has been opened to the extent that we no longer understand what truth is supposed to be and how we arrive at it and how we protect ourselves from untruths. Juries are told and charged by judges to determine where the truth lies in particular disputes. And if you remove the foundation of what is truth and how to arrive at it, essentially, you would be threatening our system of government. >> Jesse Wegman: Yeah, it's an excellent point. And it's a thorny problem to solve because you often feel in this moment that people are coming to public debates and governmental negotiations with two or more completely different ideas of what the truth is. So convincing some people that they've got it wrong, it's not just a conversation. It very quickly becomes a battle. And I think in a lot of people's minds, an existential one. Let me ask -- I want to pull back. And this question is for all of you, to the extent you're interested in responding to it. But I would like to talk about it -- I think Khin talked earlier about working particularly with immigrant communities. And obviously, that was a subject and an issue very close to Bob's heart. He started somewhat before the Justice for All program Immigrant Justice Corps, which helped train young lawyers and law students to provide legal assistance to immigrants, many of whom didn't speak English, and who generally, as a rule, did not have very good legal representation, if they had any legal representation at all. This was another thing I was talking to Bob about how he came up with the idea for this program. And he had been -- he had attended an immigration court hearing and was shocked and horrified at the low level of legal representation these -- most of the immigrants were getting. And he said to me, I quote him here, "I was having -- I was really having trouble sleeping, thinking about what an awful situation this is." I like to quote that just because it's such a -- it's just Bob. It's the essence of Bob just that he would stay up at night thinking about, you know, people he didn't even know and how much they were struggling with things that a lot of Americans might consider their birthright. Now of course, Bob himself was the child and grandchild of immigrants. So I think he had a particular sensitivity to the struggles that people coming to this country from other countries face. But I do wonder if any of you could speak about working with immigrant communities and immigrants on civics education. Often, I think immigrants are probably some of the most well educated about American civics of anyone here. But I'd love to hear from your experiences what that's been like and whether that's changed in recent years. >> Khin Mai Aung: I can start. So prior to working at Generation Citizen, I did immigrant civil rights enforcement at the State Education Department. And then for a long time, before that, I was at the Asian American Legal Defense Fund, where I worked on -- I led our education program. Much of that also related to general immigrant integration. And I personally believe that our schools, which is the topic that we're talking about, is a really critical point of integration into our American democracy for new immigrants, and particularly with refugees. But I think that certainly, like, when people apply to become, you know, citizens, they study about our American political system. But I think that our schools are the point of contact for, like, broad integration about our civic landscape, whether it's through learning about participatory budgeting or some other program. They might go -- kids might go home and talk to their parents. And so I do think our schools are a really critical point. I think in my prior work, in you know, doing immigrant rights, I mean, I definitely feel like there is more work that needs to be done on the ground across the board outside of education in terms of integrating immigrant communities, not just from like a services perspective. And I was a legal services provider for some time. But outside of that, to kind of really do broad outreach in immigrant and refugee communities. I think there's more that the Bar could do. There's more that public institutions could do to do that. And I think it's something that, you know, I would love to be a thought partner in trying to figure out how that can happen. >> Jesse Wegman: Judge or Jenna, any thoughts on immigrants? >> Jenna Ryall: Just agreeing, obviously, that schools are often an entry point to so much information, but also for civics teachers and schools in general to recognize themselves as hubs of civic action and civic engagement. And there's so much information that young people and their families, by extension, can learn through schools and can have access to through school that they may not have access to otherwise. And so just kind of echoing all of the things that have already been said, but also, kind of going back to that idea of centering our students' experiences. And as important as that is, so also is civics as that -- the more traditional understanding of local government and how local government works and what's available to people. You know, when we were piloting the civics education curriculum, we were piloting it in a seventh-grade class in a school where I used to teach at Pier 71 in the Bronx. And as the teacher was explaining, they were learning what the City Council does. And young students oftentimes think the President is the answer to everything. My godson will tell me that, you know, he's going to tell the President on me. I'm like, all right, go ahead and try. But they think the President is the answer, that's where you go. And so to sit in a classroom where students were learning that the President doesn't have all of that power, and here are the things your city council member does, and here are the things you can contact them about. And one of them being the way that if your landlord doesn't have to heat up and watched as a student, like, very quickly was jotting down some notes, right, which, heartbreaking in general, but also recognizing how important it is for all students, you know, obviously, immigrant students, students who are not immigrants, to understand that the civics classroom is oftentimes that where they're getting that information about the services that are available to their families and bringing that home, just driving home the point of how important that can be. >> Judge Victor Marrero: Just wanted to say one thing that's part of the Justice for All program relating to immigrants is that immigrants become citizens by naturalization. And when they do, it is the -- they do so in the federal courts. So the judges preside over naturalization services on a regular basis. And in the civic education program, we promote the importance of immigrants becoming citizens by highlighting the ceremonies, holding them in larger venues and different venues so that this year, this summer, for example, Judge Bianco held a Immigration Service out in one of the baseball fields in Long Island. Literally fields. We've had this -- some immigrants becoming citizens in the public schools, again, to tie the role of immigrants and the importance of citizenship with education. And the response has been overwhelming and quite moving. >> Jesse Wegman: That's a great detail. Thank you for that image. I hadn't realized that. But of course, you know, I think about the experience of being -- that I always have to remind myself of when I'm parenting small children is that modeling is always more effective than lecturing. And so having an environment in which people, large numbers of people are able to see the physical manifestation of citizenship being created and of people having worked toward and then earned citizenship seems like such a powerful model and such a powerful message to convey to the American community at large and to people who are both yearning to be citizens and also those who already are or maybe were born citizens and never give it a second thought. So that's a great -- I really love that you're doing that. That also brings to mind -- I'm going to just ask this and then open the floor for any questions that there might be. But I wanted to ask all of you back to go back to Jenna's comment earlier about kids bringing their experiences into this process. And I want to just talk about how experience plays a role in civics education, how civics becomes embodied in a society. So there's the -- there's just the teaching of it, right? There's the book learning and all of that, that we know about. But then there's the, you know, Alexis de Tocqueville's famous quote, "The American learns about the law by participating in the making of it." Is that even true? Is that -- was that ever true? And is it true today? And to the extent that it's not, how can we bring people in to that process more so that their own experiences are reflected in the actual process of lawmaking and also that they feel that their experiences are being heard and incorporated into the way that our society runs? >> Jenna Ryall: We talk a lot about how important it is for schools to be democratic and for students to be participating in democratic classrooms, democratic schools, where their voices are valued, and they're asked to contribute to how those institutions run. And we equate it to you don't ask anyone to, you know, go on stage in dance ballet without ever having practiced it. You wouldn't ask someone to go out and play baseball without ever having practiced it. So the idea that we would graduate adults into society and have them participate in democracy without having practiced that, when you make those metaphors, it seems silly. And so how important it is for education to also be, to your point earlier, to be modeling -- for the adults around them to be modeling what it means to participate in a democratic society and for schools to be microcosms of the democratic society so that when students are no longer in school, they know what it means to be actively engaged in a community and they know what it means to participate in its lawmaking and to participate in making decisions. >> Khin Mai Aung: I mean, I think that's right. I think the linchpin of a civics education is for students to feel like they can make a difference and that they know how to engage with, like, public decision making, whether or not through a program that the DoE runs or we run here in the city or outside, like, whether, you know, they actually succeed in a particular campaign is that they feel like they know how to do that. Like, it's having those skills to do that. And I think that it also is really important in terms of connecting with their communities. I really feel like through this time, this type of work that we've been doing and Jenna's office has been doing, has really helped our students in this period of disrupted learning to engage with our communities and to really, like, have this sense of belonging connection. That's, I think, you know, adjacent to and separate from the actual civics learning. >> Jesse Wegman: I have -- >> Judge Victor Marrero: Jenna mentioned practice. One of the things that we want -- that we encourage through the Civic Education Program Justice for All is practice and democracy by providing opportunities for students and teachers to become better educated, to visit the classrooms, to visit the courtrooms, to meet with judges and lawyers and other parts of the system and actually to play out the roles of the various participants in the justice system. Juries play a vital role in making our system work. And we give students an opportunity to serve as jurors, as prosecutors, as defense attorneys. And that way, have them exposed to how the system really works and being part of it themselves. And that is a very powerful tool. >> Jesse Wegman: I have -- the three first questions here, two of them, I think, are -- really, any of you could take on. And the last one, I think, is targeted more at the judge. Let me ask you this first one. Do any of the panelists have a story of a lesson or a component of civic education that they found really excited a participant? >> Khin Mai Aung: I mean, I think for us, like, participatory budgeting and being able to kind of make a difference. Like, one of our schools has long-standing project around water safety, which started when they discovered they had results from the DoE, which we all got for our schools, which I certainly did, about lead in water, which is just, you know, just was something that was happening in the pipes, which, you know, DoE was good enough to let everyone know. And so this school started a multiyear campaign that built on each other the class that we worked with. Each year worked on different things. And they have a platform in terms of eventually have -- like, mandating water safety across the board, which, you know, eventually, hopefully, they'll succeed. But I think in the short run, through participatory budgeting, they were able to get some funding to support the purchase of filtered water fountains in their school, which at least resolved the issue for their school. And so I think that there are -- I think that was really, really powerful for them. I think with regard to other issues, it's -- you know, like some issues, we will be able to have traction. Some issues will take a little bit longer time. And that's just what we have to accept. >> Jenna Ryall: I think to -- oh, sorry. Go ahead. >> Judge Victor Marrero: Important anecdote of how the civic education is important as an opportunity for students to get inspired to look for lives and careers in the justice system. I've always been moved when we visited schools. Bob Katzmann and I did a number of these and were quite excited to hear the students say that because of what they learned from us and from participating in the civic education program, they wanted to be lawyers and judges. They were seeing the justice system not from behind the table where the defendant sit but from the front of the courtroom where the judges and the lawyers work. And that was very, very inspiring to me. There was one instance in which we held a national conference in civic education in our Marshall courthouse and invited participants from all over the country. There was hundreds of them. And we had one student speak at the conference. And this student was a woman. I got up there, and she stole the show by saying, "I'm going to be the next woman Justice of the Supreme Court." Justice Jackson beat her to it. But the fact is that here was someone really expressing ambition in a way that would not have been possible had not they had the forum in which to do that and to see how it works for them and for others. >> Jesse Wegman: Can I -- I'm going to move on to another question. This is also for anyone who wants to take it. How do we encourage civics education throughout a lifetime? How do we cultivate an evolution of learning for voters of all ages? >> Jenna Ryall: I can start with that one. I think starting young, which is kind of the theme of the things I've been saying today. But starting young and giving young people the opportunity to get their hands dirty in civics. The example we heard before of participatory budgeting is when students are given the opportunity to have the impact, make the impact, see what that looks like. I was the mock trial coach for my school when I was a classroom teacher. And that was the most excited I've ever seen students about anything civics related. But those students are now adults. And it was that that experience, the connection to the real world, to seeing what this could look like elsewhere, the possibility that that could lead to a career, that was encouraging them to -- encouraging them to participate in the long run. But I think the key to encouraging that education throughout a lifetime is starting young with those connections to the real world. The classroom experience should not be in isolation. And so if our students are seeing from a very young age how the things that they are doing -- first off, making sure they know that what they're doing is civics. Right? What you're doing is civics, how this is impacting other things, and seeing the results of their efforts is going to encourage that. If you keep doing something and not -- and getting pushback or not seeing success, are you going to continue to do that? Right? And so giving our kids the opportunity to have some civic education wins, I think, is a good way to start. I think voting, as important as it is. Decentering it is the gold standard for a lot of our young people. Most of our students can't vote. They're kindergarteners. They're five. They're six. They're seven. They're eight. So for the majority of the time that they're in school, they're not old enough to vote yet. And so making sure that there's other ways for them to see how they can engage in the community. Voting will obviously be important, and they need to learn about that. But it will become part of their civics toolkit rather than this one thing that they can do down the road, which doesn't feel very real for them. >> Khin Mai Aung: And also, I think -- I mean, obviously, like, voting super, duper important. But at the same time, sometimes it can be very -- like, depending on what happens in any particular election -- like, it shouldn't be the only thing. There can be a lot of other smaller local issues where people can engage more. And I think part of it -- I think the biggest part of it is just helping young people through their lives. So for us, like, we work in education. Right? But I think that this also holds true for people that work with older adults, making people feel empowered, helping people feel empowered, that they actually can make a difference. I think that is the issue. I live in Park Slope, Brooklyn, where I think people feel very empowered. But I don't necessarily know that that's the case at all neighborhoods. And so it's like creating a situation where -- how can you foster empowerment and buy-in for everyone in our community that even if in some small way that they can make a difference and that their vote counts or their voice in some community dialogue counts. >> Jesse Wegman: Judge, would you like a final word? >> Judge Victor Marrero: Well, I just want to mention one thing, coming back to Bob Katzmann and his legacy. And you're mentioning the immigration -- the Justice Corps. Bob was very, very proud of a statistic that was captured in the results achieved by the lawyers in the Immigrant Justice Corps in that more than 99% of immigrants who go to the immigrant courts challenging deportations lose their cases when they're not represented by attorneys. On the other hand, every one of the cases in which the immigrant won was a case in which they were represented by a lawyer. And Bob was very, very proud of that. >> Jesse Wegman: It's a great statistic. And I remember him telling me that as well. And it's a great way to end this conversation and a great way to invoke once more the legacy of the man who inspired tonight and who I'm sure will inspire many more similar panels like this. So I want to thank the three of you for joining tonight and for sharing your experiences and your wisdom on this topic. And I want to thank the New York Public Library for hosting the conversation. And of course, we do it in memory and sadness over the loss of Judge Katzmann. So thank you all for being here. >> Judge Victor Marrero: Thank you for having me.